The Road Home

The Road Home
There is no place like home.

Monday, December 16, 2013

Why Did My Baby Goats Die?

It's always difficult to figure out unexpected events, especially when they deal with living things. Since I have had time to read through my books and do some research on the internet, I only have a few theories about the death of our baby goats. Nothing conclusive or even probable emerged from my reading, just a few possibilities that we can consider and keep in mind for the future. Sometimes it is easier to handle difficult situations if there is a known 'why' to hang the reasoning on, but that 'why' is not always available. Here are the circumstances leading up to One Stripe going into labor.


She began to fill her udder and get quite a bit larger in mid November.
 
November 29, 2013

November 29, 2013
By the beginning of December she was starting to exhibit her characteristic waddle that comes along a few weeks before birth. Her udder was filling nicely and I figured she would have triplets on Sunday, December 15th. Her 150 day average gestation was calculated at Monday, December 16th. But since she has had triplets in the past at 149 days, I based my estimate on that date. She had no problem birthing, nursing and raising her last triplets to weaning age. We have our does raise their kids. We do not bottle feed. One Stripe is a very attentive, productive doe. That is one reason this was such a surprise. If I didn't know her history I would have doubts about her ability to produce and raise kids, especially triplets. But since I have had her for five years with excellent results, I know this is some type of anomaly that has an unknown cause. We did take her age into consideration. She will be six years old in May 2014. This is her fifth set of kids. But after she had her last kid in January 2013, and the rest of the kids were born in March, she was running around up and down dirt piles playing with the kids like she was a yearling. She hasn't shown any signs of slowing down because of her age.

 
Morning of December 9, 2013


On Monday evening, December 9th as we were feeding the animals, I noticed that One Stripes vulva was sharply drawn into her body instead of in it's normal position. I knew that was a sign of impending birth so we prepared her birthing pen. As we were working on it, she lay down and began having strong contractions. I knew it was early according to my calculations and just hoped I had miss counted or missed seeing a breed date back in the summer. That was not the case. Interestingly enough, shortly after we had the pen set up she got up and walked into it with little coaxing. She knows the routine and was ready to be comfortably settled into a birthing pen.
 
Morning of December 9, 2013

Soon after she entered the pen she quickly gave birth to the first kid. My first thought was that it was too small. She generally has good sized, strong healthy kids. But she quickly began to clean it and it started to fuss which was a good sign. Since we weren't expecting kids this soon, our tote with our birthing supplies was at the house. While Frank went to get the tote another kid was born. By that time the first one was laying limply and kind of panting with it's mouth open showing it was having difficulty breathing. It did not have a sucking instinct or the strength to produce one, I'm not sure which. I knew from trying to help it nurse that it was very weak and I did not expect it to live. It died about 10 minutes after birth.


When Frank returned with the tote he noticed that the second kid did not have any hair on it's ears. It was just as small and exhibited the same symptoms as the first kid and also died after about 10 minutes. It took a while longer for the third kid to be born and it was in the same condition. The only difference was it didn't have much hair on it's belly and none on it's ears. One Stripe cleaned them all and even tried to gently paw at them to get them up. She passed her after birth with no problems.


There were three differences we noticed in One Stripe leading up to this event. The first was a whitish colored discharge that was on the back of her udder, going down the middle from top to bottom a few days before she gave birth. It wasn't mucous or sticky. I noticed it, but didn't think a lot about it. She had be passing the normal bit of mucous every few days for about a week and everything seemed normal. Another difference was that she seemed a little nervous, more so than I remember in past years. I wondered if this was because after four years she turned into the lead goat of the herd. As long as we had one other doe from our original herd that came here with One Stripe, she was more than content to let the other goat be the lead doe. One Stripe had quite an adjustment period when we sold the other older does last spring. The only other thing I noticed was that she was coughing some after she ate. But that didn't concern me because she was getting so big. She had been eating slower because she just didn't have as much room and that is a normal progression for her in past pregnancies.

Pearl, our Pyrenees, as we work with One Stripe; never far from the does

Since giving birth, One Stripe has shown no ill effects to her health at all. We gave her 2cc of LA200 (Oxytetracycline) just as a precaution. Her milk is in and she is producing more everyday. I began milking her the night she gave birth and have milked her twice a day since. We saved all of that milk for the dog, cats and chickens and didn't start keeping milk for ourselves until five days after she gave birth. She is now producing a gallon a day. She is getting around fine, is alert and bright eyed. She has shown no signs of illness at all. The only real side effect she exhibited was her very sad mourning and crying for her babies for about three days. It was quite heart breaking. 

2010

We had one other doe several years ago that had to have assistance with her first kidding. She had twins, both of which were trying to be born at the same time. Once I got them sorted out they were born one right after the other. One was smaller, fully formed, but dead. The other was quite a bit larger, but totally hairless and dead. I always thought if I had pulled them sooner maybe the smaller one would have lived. I don't know why one would look normal and the other be hairless. But after this experience, I doubt the smaller one would have lived. 

2012

My reading did not give me any conclusive information that led me to believe she had any infection or contagious disease. We do have cats that spend time in the barn so I read up on toxoplasmosis, but that didn't fit. There are quite a few illnesses or diseases that can cause miscarriages in goats late in their pregnancies, but none of them fit her symptoms or lack of symptoms. 

In Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats on page 125 it says, "Abortion is more common in late pregnancy. The cause can be mechanical, such as the pregnant doe being butted by another or running into an obstruction such as a manger or narrow doorway, or it can be related to moldy feeds."  

One Stripe had been a little more nervous than usual and I guess she could have run into something, but it is doubtful she was butted by one of the other three does. We haven't seen any signs of that behavior from any of our four does. But there could have been a question about the feed. Some of the last sweet feed that Frank bought was a little moldy. We figured mixed in with the corn and alfalfa it wasn't enough to affect the goats. But now we wonder if it could have been. The hay we have been using is left from last spring and is a little dusty. We started feeding some to the does when the weather started to turn bad. I wanted to make sure One Stripe had plenty of roughage and that it was something she was used to. Normally the goats graze on our standing hay in the pasture and we don't need to supplement with hay. When the icy weather came in and everything had an inch of ice followed by an inch of sleet followed by several inches of snow, I don't think the does did much grazing. We made sure they had plenty of hay. I don't know if this change in roughage made any difference in her pregnancy or not. It's just another possible variable among many.


Here is a list of the website pages I read. They all seemed to agree with my books and I didn't find any additional information that seemed to point to a conclusive answer. But they are good resources, so I wanted to share them.

 Goat Wisdom 

Alabama Cooperative Extension System 

Abortions and causes of death in newborn sheep and goats by Debrah Mohale

Onion Creek Ranch

JustAnswer.com Large Animal Veterinary

Sunday, December 15, 2013

Raising animals is definitely an adventure in learning, caring and lots of hard work. Sometimes it is very rewarding and sometimes it is heart breaking. Either way, it is an undertaking well worth the effort involved. It builds character and instills a deep abiding appreciation for what the Lord has put here for our sustenance and enjoyment. There are always things that happen that cannot be explained or understood. It is part of the mysteries of life, many of which fill us with awe and wonder. May it ever be so.


Until next time - Fern


26 comments:

  1. Loss of a newborn for unidentifiable reasons is frustrating. I had some experience with mould in feed when I had cattle. I can be deadly and hard to diagnose. I had hoped for your mental well being that you would find a clear and concise reason for the loss. Then its so much easier to handle..you know you can fix it.

    Thank you for all the information and explanation.

    God Bless you and your farm

    ReplyDelete
  2. Thank you for sharing all this information, I'm sure it was hard to write. Sometimes we just don't know why. I agree that a mourning doe can be absolutely heartbreaking. I've seen that several times too. I'm glad One Stripe seems to be ok and is producing milk well.
    ~ Kathi

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I waited a week to write it and by then it was okay. Since I had been posting about the babies coming, it seemed only natural that I would share what I could about losing them. I hope it will help someone else along the way.

      Thanks for the thoughts, Kathi.

      Fern

      Delete
  3. This is a very generous post. To write about this in such detail after what you were able to find out following such a terrible disappointment is a kind and giving gesture. I'm sure it will help a lot of people.

    I knew goats had a risk for late miscarriages. I've never experienced it first hand, though, like you have here. They seem so hardy in every other way. Give One Stripe a huggy snuggle from me. Take care.

    Just Me

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you. I do hope it is of use to others. I know I really enjoy reading things from other folks that apply to what we do. Learning is so important.

      Thank you for the comment. I really appreciate it.

      Fern

      Delete
  4. Fern thanks for writing your experience. I am in the same state as i am mourning the death of 2 kids from different does. After giving me pleasure for one one week they passed on 4 days after each other. One was week from day one and i did not expect it to live besides the mother seems like she did not want to keep her but the other was strong and happy but just one evening last night it just was too week.I have been feeding grain but a few weeks before i threw out some fingerlings that were moldy into the feeding trough and the goats ate..Could it be the reason.I am in mourning

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm sorry you lost your baby goats, it's always a tough situation. We haven't had any problems with goats and moldy feed, but I've heard of others that have. I don't know the symptoms it causes either. After I lost these babies, I read everything I could find in my goat books, on the internet and discussed it with our vet. There was still no definitive answer, just theories or probabilities. Take care and hang in there. You'll have more babies, and more to learn. We learn something new all the time from our goats.

      Fern

      Delete
  5. We had the same thing happen with our senior doe today! She was extremely nervous, She had a strange white discharge hours before birth, and the first twin is extremely small and holds his mouth open. He also has a week suck.
    We had never even considered mold... Very good article!

    ReplyDelete
  6. I'm not an expert but from what I've read your kids were born prematurely, according to your description of missing hair and being born early. Their lungs aren't fully developed yet if born early.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I too just lost a newborn kid today. It was the mom’s first baby and she had it while we were at work on a frigid day in the 20’s outside.
    We aren’t sure if it was one of our other kids playing or just born dead. The mom has been mourning all evening. It makes me so terribly sad. Having lost a baby myself, I know her loss is real.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am very sorry for your loss, and for the loss of the kid. Are you going to milk the doe? We raise our goats for milk and meat. Our doe that lost her kids mourned terribly for a few days, but I think milking her helped somehow. Hope it works out well.

      Take care, Fern

      Delete
  8. Hi Fern, this reading was interesting for me to read. I had a Nigerian dwarf doe give birth on April 5 to triplets, two of which died. They were all fully formed and one was entirely cleaned off while the two others were still wet and lifeless (males). Persephone is a good mother, but maybe three was too much. I do wonder if it was a late term abortion brought on by headbutting. I have one doe that wouldn’t leave her alone. Thanks for your story. Going to read some of those articles.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You are welcome. We never did figure out anything different for One Stripe. Sometimes I think our does and nature knows better, and chooses which ones live and which ones die. In our experience there is not always rhyme or reason.

      We have culled our aggressive does that stir up the herd. It has worked well. We now have a fairly docile group of does. They still butt head with each other on occasion, usually when one is in heat.

      Thank you for sharing your experience! Fern

      Delete
  9. Fern, we had triplets born two days ago, one billy that was large and normal, the other two were a billy and nanny, but had very little hair, weak, and goiters. They were born in the afternoon so tried to watch since they were so week. The big boy was up and walking. We did milk the mom to get that first milk into the weak ones. I left them with the mom that night but Saturday morning, they were still not up. We brought them to the house, warmed them up under a light and today which is SUnday morning they are still alive and getting stronger. I have been bottle feeding them according to what I read (moms milk).

    I guess my questions are, if they do live, will they grow more hair to keep them warm in the winter? We live in the Triad of North Carolina. I did notice this morning they are trying to stand, holding up their heads. They are definitely getting stronger. They are in the house and will be until they can walk. Looked like to me this morning their goiters are not as large as they were. They are very vocal and are taking the bottle with no problem and peeing and pooping. I know the the goiters are caused by iodine deficiency. I read that you can dilute a drop in 1cc of water and give them orally 1 time. Can you shed any light on if they live, will they grow more hair to keep them warm? Thank you, any advise would be greatly appreciated as all I found is that most like this did not live but a few hours. These will 2 days old this afternoon.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Vanessa,

      I am afraid I am no help to you in this situation. The only kid we have had born without hair was also dead. We believe they were premature, but never had a specific reason why. We haven't had any issues with goiters. When I started reading your first paragraph, I expected to read the kids had died, but it sounds like you have provided them a good start.

      We have found over the years that the feed/mineral rations we provide our goats make a difference. One year we had too much alfalfa in the feed and had almost all buck kids. We eliminated the alfalfa and started getting pink eye. Found out that the Vitamin A in the alfalfa was the needed nutrient to prevent pink eye, reintroduced it at a lesser rate, never had pink eye again and had a balance of bucks and does.

      I would look at the feed ration and see what you may be able to do to prevent this in the future. Other than that, from my very limited knowledge and experience, it looks like you are doing well with your kids.

      Please let me know how they turn out. It's always good to learn something new and experience, or the experience of others, is the best teacher.

      Fern

      Delete
    2. One of the first goats we had to kid, had a large kid but it had no hair, a goiter and was born during the night or early morning. When I went out to check, it was already dead. I started reading then what could have caused it and by everything I read, it looks like iodine deficiency. With that being said, we have bought the iodized salt blocks but all of our does were due around the same time. So not able to help with the kidding this time. The two I had posted about are improving from what they were. Since I knew she was having them that afternoon, I keep checking, one was large and full of hair and normal was able to walk within a little bit, so I went back to the house, came back an hour later and they were both together and small. It appeared they may have been in the same sack, not sure or if they can do that but anyway, she started cleaning them but they were too weak to walk. We moved them to the same place as the larger brother. The next morning when I went out early, they were in 2 differnt places in the stall. So we bought them to the house and put them under a light to get them warm. They have been in the house since. I took them outside in the yard yesterday because the little nanny was trying to stand. The little billy is a little slower but has perked up alot. We are milking the mom every day so we can feed the two little ones. No problems with the big brother. I have taken them both out to the stall today with the gate closed. Since the nanny is walking, wobbly but walking, kinda hard in the tote. I went out a few minutes ago and the little billy was standing. He walks a step or two then falls down but that is a big improvement. They have plenty of room to keep trying out those legs. Fingers crossed that they will be ok. They are drinking from a bottle fine and peeing and pooping now as they should. I was going to post a pic but did not see where I could do that. Thanks for posting back

      Delete
    3. I know I repeated myself some but was hard to see on my phone.

      Delete
  10. Thanks for the update, Vanessa. I am curious to see how their hair grows in and if the deficiency has any long term affects.

    Raising animals is always a learning experience, and sometimes the challenges are more difficult than others. It sounds like you are doing a very good job with yours.

    We make sure our goats have free choice access to a loose goat mineral mixture. At first we bought a goat/sheep mineral only to find out that goats need copper, but it will kill sheep. So we switched to a mineral mixture made specifically for goats. We have never used a block mineral, so I don't know if the contents are the same. I just always make sure whatever we get has copper in it.

    Best of luck! Fern

    ReplyDelete
  11. Frank and Fern, Just wanted to let you know that the twins will be a week only tomorrow. They are growing and their hair is coming in. Finally their teeth have come thru the gums so they nibble at my neck while I am holding them to feed. Have to do them that way, due to the Nanny is there trying her best to get on my lap to take it away from Billy. They are both drinking 6oz 4 times a day. Of course both are walking and Nanny tries to get into everything. I have them in the carport due to it has been cool here during the day and down to the 30‘s at night. It had really been warm, up to the 80‘s but a cold front has come thru for this week. Too cold for them since they don’t have a coat on yet. If the temps get up in the high 60‘s to low 70‘s during the day I have been taking them out and putting them in one of the stalls so they can practice walking. I have noticed the Billy has week pasterns and kinda walks flatfooted, Nanny does a little. Billy was a day or so behind Nanny walking. I read that you can give them Selenium and vit E to help strengthen, or you can actually splint if necessary. Gonna give him a little more time before I splint until he is getting around a bit better.

    I am giving them 1 cc of diluted iodine a little later today to help (I hope) with the goiters. I also noticed Billy has a eye watering and I noticed he is having trouble seeing, he does this spin like he is dancing. I went to Tractor Supply this morning and got an antibiotic eye ointment to put on his eye due to it appears he has an inverted eyelid or Entropion. I have had to do alot of research when I notice something that is not what appears to be normal with them. So far so good. Trying to take some of it slower since they are so small and skinny. But they are gaining weight, and their legs are getting longer, I can tell that each time I pick them up. And both of them have alot of spunk. Still got my fingers crossed they continue to get stronger each day.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Well today Billy is walking on his toes like he is supposed to, So is the Nanny. So I guess splinting is out of the question. I have named them Bonnie and Clyde. Bonnie started doing the jumping with the springs in her feet thing, she is so little and skinny(since they don't have any hair much yet) it looks funny to see her try to jump. But their hair is coming in. When they were born, they looked like one of those hairless cats, but did have a little mane about half an inch like a horse. So the hair has been a big thing for me. Clyde still acts like he can't see well. The eye that did not have the inverted eyelid, he kinda turns his head to see out of that eye. Their little lungs are good, as soon as they hear me open the door to the carport, they are up and wanting something to drink and vocally they let you know it. I am just taking it a day at a time. They are drinking all their 6 ounces four times a day. Think I am going to seven ozs tomorrow. Don't wont to overfeed them. They are like all kids, act like they are starving. Neither one is up to 5 lbs yet but I can tell they are gaining just by picking them up. And after they eat, their little bellies feel full. I will keep you updated, good or bad how it goes. So far so good.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Great update, Vanessa. I hope anyone else that comes along to read this may be able to use the information. I enjoy reading about the kids progress. Thank you!

      Fern

      Delete
  13. Today is Friday, May 15, 2020 and my babies, Bonnie and Clyde are two weeks old. My other two, Nosey Nanny is 5 weeks old today and Billy will be 5 weeks old on May 19th. They are bottle babies also. Nosey Nanny’s mom had no milk so I started with her, then Billy’s mom rejected him after he was born close to a still born. They were normal and are growing like weeds. I moved Bonnie and Clyde out to the barn yesterday to stay since the weather has gotten warm. We have them in one of the stables with the door shut. Bonnie and Clyde both are growing and have more hair and they just acts like little kids jumping around. Clyde’s eyes have finally healed and he has them open wide like he should however, he is going to be visually impaired, one of his eyes is cloudy looking. Not sure how much he can see but does appear to be able to see the difference in light and if something moves. Bonnie comes running if he gets lost in the stall and starts squealing. She makes sure where ever he lays she gets up and goes to lay with him. And all 4 know my voice or when they see me, it is a bunch of squealing kids. LOL Bonnie and Clyde legs are growing but they still look skinny since they don’t have alot of hair. Both are drinking 8 ozs of mom’s milk 4 times a day since we are still milking her. I took them from 7 to 8 today. Mom has one bag that everyday is almost dragging the ground so we milk her every evening. I started the bigger kids on replacement milk last week since the kids the moms are raising are drinking all they are making. So this has been my journey with my 4 bottle babies. All is well and fingers crossed it will stay that way. Will check in next week and let you know how Bonnie and Clyde are doing. I am hoping we are over the hurdle.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Well, Bonnie and Clyde were 3 weeks old yesterday. They are continuing to grow like weeds. Their hair is coming in to where they are beginning to look like baby kids. They still are not as big as the triplet brother was when all were born. I noticed their little horn buds are coming thru, can actually see them now. I have also noticed over the last week that Clyde’s eyes are really looking bright. I also noticed that when or if I set their bottle down that he is on it in a skinny minute. Or if I move it, he has no problem following it. Also he no longer turns in circles so it appears that he is able to see. He follows me when I am out there where in the beginning he did not. Was not even sure how good he could hear either. But now he acts normally and is actually filling out better than Bonnie. She does not want to take her bottle standing, she just fiddles with it. But when I pick her up to feed, she drinks like she is going to a fire. Clyde stands and takes his bottle. Used to be the other way around, Clyde in my lap and Bonnie standing. I guess they are just spoiled. Bonnie just lays her head on my lap and stares with those eyes until I pick her up. Not really anything else other than they are just growing. No more problems so far. Fingers still crossed. Hope you have enjoyed my journey with my preemie kids.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's great information, Vanessa, thank you for sharing.

      Now for the hard questions. What are your long term plans for these kids? Are you going to keep them? If so, are you going to breed them knowing the problems you have had? Do you keep any of your goats for a meat supply? Would you sell them? Lots of questions.

      If it were me, I would not breed them and possibly pass on a genetic weakness into the herd, thus producing a less vigorous blood line. I also would not sell them, again passing on a possible problem for the next owners. And finally, I would not have put in the time and effort you have to keep them alive. We have never bottle fed kids.

      We are all different in our purposes for raising livestock. I truly enjoy my goats. Very much. We have lost a few to diseases and weak constitutions and I always cry over them. But it's just the way of the world when you raise animals. We keep some wethers for meat and I don't name them or become attached. On purpose. The girls? That's another story. I love all my girls, even the ones I know I will be selling.

      It's a tough call and we're all different in the way we approach it and make decisions. I would be interested to hear what your plans are.

      Thanks again for sharing. Fern

      Delete
    2. First off, we don't raise them for meat or for breeding purposes. We plan to neuter Clyde once he is old enough not to have problems. I had already read up on that. We are not a breeder. We have always had goats but only as pets. I do have have a family that is looking for some baby goats for his 3 little boys. I know that he wants the two older bottle babies which we had no issues and we also have 4 others that the moms raised. If he does not want Bonnie and Clyde together we will keep them. Normally we sell the little billies and keep the nannies. We have another family that wants one of the kids as a pet. So we will see what the families want. Bonnie and Clyde are a package deal. We will take care of having them fixed once they are old enough. Never planned on breeding either of them. We raise Black Angus Cattle so if it were cows then that would be a different story. Goats have always just been a hobby.

      Delete
    3. Sounds like you have a good plan, Vanessa. Thanks for sharing it. The more we share, the more opportunities others have to see how many different ways there are to handle a variety of situations.

      Thanks! Fern

      Delete